Journeying across different dimensions

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Journeying across different dimensions

Post by BlissInTheHeart » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:50 am

NOTE FOR READERS

This topic springs from a thread originally posted in the NDE section: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ? which has led us to discuss various aspects which are not necessarily the answer to why some people have o remember an NDE and others don't. I felt that if we had a duplicate of the thread here, we could more freely continue our discussion, and leave the other thread for whoever has an input about why some have or remember an NDE and others don't. I hope this is OK!
Giulia (19 May 2018)

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most ndes are in the spirit of a huge excitement.
unforgettable good experiences.
only about 5 or less than 10 percent have bad experiences.
but because not everyone, who comes back, can remember anything, one might ask :
are these NDEs representative ?
can we rely on it, that we are among the 90 percent, when we leave this world?
My guess is : NO

I rely this guess on two observations :
1) in almost every NDE the "soul" is telling only about his own afterlife, not about the afterlife of others. Except one, that i remember from this NDERF database (sorry, i forgot the number :( ) :
here a male soul tells, that he was watching the globe from above, and he saw many (most of the) souls that were dying, leaving the earth, and then they were cought by some devils, but some angels hardly tried to get them away from the devils and lift them up to the Light.

My second " observation" somehow fits with this : a message of Mother Mary in Medjugorje :
2) she said in one of her early messages in the 80s : , that a soul , after dying, decides by "himself", that he is not ready yet ( = not clean enough) to go to the exciting places of the Beyond already. They decide by themselfes to go to purgutory first, to get a cleaning there. She said that the purgatory has several stages, from "almost Heaven" till "almost hell".
After a "while" they will be lifted up by God to enter Heaven.

And ths also fits somehow what the Hindus say (f.e. Aurobindo). They call the purgatory "Vital World", a realm that is associated with the navel chacra. He sais : some souls suffer there, some others not.


Comments / Ideas / counter excamples are very wellcome



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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by DennisMe » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:27 am

Although I'm not a spiritualist, I like the view that Allan Kardec wrote down; that we all automatically end up where we belong because like attracts like.

Personally I believe this has to do with our personal free will (at the spiritual level), which is respected 100% in divine circles by all accounts I have read.

Darkness is not compatible with light. Shine a torch and darkness is gone.
Now imagine a person who identifies part of his or herself with their darkness. By their own free will, they choose to be known as a mean person. How could such a person stand in the light and not be stripped of their "essential" (or so they believe) traits?

Until such a spirit personally decides to relinquish such dark traits, they cannot be subjected to the light, because it would remove some of their personally chosen traits, thus damaging their character and violating their free will.

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Fri May 11, 2018 1:14 pm

DennisMe wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:27 am
Although I'm not a spiritualist, I like the view that Allan Kardec wrote down; that we all automatically end up where we belong because like attracts like.

Personally I believe this has to do with our personal free will (at the spiritual level), which is respected 100% in divine circles by all accounts I have read.

Darkness is not compatible with light. Shine a torch and darkness is gone.
Now imagine a person who identifies part of his or herself with their darkness. By their own free will, they choose to be known as a mean person. How could such a person stand in the light and not be stripped of their "essential" (or so they believe) traits?

Until such a spirit personally decides to relinquish such dark traits, they cannot be subjected to the light, because it would remove some of their personally chosen traits, thus damaging their character and violating their free will.
While I would agree that 'like attracts like', I would also say that the darkness (shadow) and the light are all part of the infinite whole. In other words, one could ask the question; where does the dark end and the light begin? It's all one continuum and it's really dependent on one's perspective.

Therefore, I don't think that we can simply deny the shadow self while maintaining a strict focus on the seemingly opposite polarity, which we call 'light' and expect that we will only see beauty in our experiences, whether it be on this dense earthly plane, or in the subtle realms. It's all [mind] energy -- a cosmic dance in which our Consciousness plays roles, imagines form, and interprets scenarios. What one person (conscious entity) may interpret as 'dark', another person may interpret the same experience as positive, or their version of 'light'.

Another way to think of it is this; without the action of moving upwards, there can be no experience of moving downwards. The measure with which you move up is the same measure or capacity you have available to move or experience moving down.

The dark is simply another aspect of the light. Where one begins and the other ends is just a matter of [conscious] interpretation. :)

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by ano1 » Sat May 12, 2018 6:35 pm

I have always thought that to entertain the idea of the dark, is to invite it in.
Therefore, I prefer to stay in the light at all times.

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by Giulia » Tue May 15, 2018 2:11 am

ano1 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 6:35 pm
I have always thought that to entertain the idea of the dark, is to invite it in.
Therefore, I prefer to stay in the light at all times.
How wise, ano!
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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Tue May 15, 2018 12:27 pm

ano1 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 6:35 pm
I have always thought that to entertain the idea of the dark, is to invite it in.
Therefore, I prefer to stay in the light at all times.
I don't think it's necessary to 'invite' darkness in so that you can experience its effects. We can choose to observe the opposite polarity, without getting involved in it or getting it all over us. However, the 'darkness' is already an integral part of each one of us, or the whole, just as the 'light' is part of us. The problem is that we can hide (deny) the presence of the 'darkness' or shadow self very easily while we're condensed in a physical container. But, when we no longer have the physical container to contain our conscious energy bubble ( when we vacate our worn out physical containers upon 'death') we sometimes see what has been really hidden from our conscious awareness since it can more easily become reflected back to us in the subtle realms, where thoughts (conscious and subconscious) manifests around us, instantaneously.

I also think this is why some people report hellish NDEs. It's really their own shadow self being projected onto the virtual astral screen for them to look at and contemplate. If they are aware of their shadow projections, they can shift their consciousness and delete the hellish experiences.

The so called 'darkness' is always there, just as much as the 'light' is always present. Duality is a just perception illusion. It's more vivid in the subtle realms though.

It's a matter of whether or not you're able to perceive this dual nature while still embodied in a physical container, and then master the ability to choose how to interpret and use it for a much higher purpose than that of negativity.

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by Giulia » Wed May 16, 2018 3:01 am

BlissInTheHeart wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:50 am
And ths also fits somehow what the Hindus say (f.e. Aurobindo). They call the purgatory "Vital World", a realm that is associated with the navel chacra. He sais : some souls suffer there, some others not.


Comments / Ideas / counter excamples are very wellcome
Hi, Bliss.

Your mention of the navel chakra reminded me of some of the observations reported by psychic and healer Barbara Brennan, who, upon witnessing people's death, found that the root, sacral and solar plexus or navel chakra do not take part in transition, but dissolve and are therefore left behind with the physical body. So I found it curious that purgatory (whose existence was invented by Christians in the 13th century - Not sure about Hindus' beliefs) could be associated with a physical-like life. My guess is that some people like to project physical drama into the Afterlife and imagine all sorts of scenarios which have nothing to do with what Near-Death Experiencers report.

Based on my own personal experience, which includes research on NDEs and some STEs with quite a high score in the Greyson NDE Scale, the reason why NDEs are forgotten is that our physical brain is designed to act as a reducing valve, so as to avoid being inundated by universal consciousness while we are busy living this physical life. I guess the same applies to dreams, which are soon forgotten or even hardly ever remembered unless we make an effort to keep a journal.
InfiniteSpirit wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 1:14 pm

While I would agree that 'like attracts like', I would also say that the darkness (shadow) and the light are all part of the infinite whole. In other words, one could ask the question; where does the dark end and the light begin? It's all one continuum and it's really dependent on one's perspective.

Therefore, I don't think that we can simply deny the shadow self while maintaining a strict focus on the seemingly opposite polarity, which we call 'light' and expect that we will only see beauty in our experiences, whether it be on this dense earthly plane, or in the subtle realms. It's all [mind] energy -- a cosmic dance in which our Consciousness plays roles, imagines form, and interprets scenarios. What one person (conscious entity) may interpret as 'dark', another person may interpret the same experience as positive, or their version of 'light'.
Welcome, InfiniteSpirit. :D

We have an active thread called Hellish NDEs and I see you have provided your contribution. Thanks!
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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Wed May 16, 2018 12:17 pm

Giulia wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:01 am
BlissInTheHeart wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:50 am
And ths also fits somehow what the Hindus say (f.e. Aurobindo). They call the purgatory "Vital World", a realm that is associated with the navel chacra. He sais : some souls suffer there, some others not.


Comments / Ideas / counter excamples are very wellcome
Hi, Bliss.

Your mention of the navel chakra reminded me of some of the observations reported by psychic and healer Barbara Brennan, who, upon witnessing people's death, found that the root, sacral and solar plexus or navel chakra do not take part in transition, but dissolve and are therefore left behind with the physical body. So I found it curious that purgatory (whose existence was invented by Christians in the 13th century - Not sure about Hindus' beliefs) could be associated with a physical-like life. My guess is that some people like to project physical drama into the Afterlife and imagine all sorts of scenarios which have nothing to do with what Near-Death Experiencers report.

Based on my own personal experience, which includes research on NDEs and some STEs with quite a high score in the Greyson NDE Scale, the reason why NDEs are forgotten is that our physical brain is designed to act as a reducing valve, so as to avoid being inundated by universal consciousness while we are busy living this physical life. I guess the same applies to dreams, which are soon forgotten or even hardly ever remembered unless we make an effort to keep a journal.
InfiniteSpirit wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 1:14 pm

While I would agree that 'like attracts like', I would also say that the darkness (shadow) and the light are all part of the infinite whole. In other words, one could ask the question; where does the dark end and the light begin? It's all one continuum and it's really dependent on one's perspective.

Therefore, I don't think that we can simply deny the shadow self while maintaining a strict focus on the seemingly opposite polarity, which we call 'light' and expect that we will only see beauty in our experiences, whether it be on this dense earthly plane, or in the subtle realms. It's all [mind] energy -- a cosmic dance in which our Consciousness plays roles, imagines form, and interprets scenarios. What one person (conscious entity) may interpret as 'dark', another person may interpret the same experience as positive, or their version of 'light'.
Welcome, InfiniteSpirit. :D

We have an active thread called Hellish NDEs and I see you have provided your contribution. Thanks!
===========================
Thank you so much, Giulia ! :)

It's great to have found a forum where we can all share some common experiences regarding NDEs, OBEs, the expansion of consciousness, etc., and help each other discover valuable pieces to this grand puzzle that seems to be infinite.

I especially appreciate your response to Bliss about how we tend to take our physical memories and experiences with us when we leave our physical bodies, particularly when we have strong attachments to our physical body and this dense plane. We re-create similar scenarios in the thought/emotional responsive subtle realms.

I really look forward to reading all of the posts and sharing some my own personal adventures in our massive expansion of consciousness!

Thank you again! :D

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by ano1 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:45 pm

Infinite spirit: I especially appreciate your response to Bliss about how we tend to take our physical memories and experiences with us when we leave our physical bodies, particularly when we have strong attachments to our physical body and this dense plane. We re-create similar scenarios in the thought/emotional responsive subtle realms.
I can only speak for my experience.. . but I really was not concerned with the physical world while I was gone. I didn't care one hoot what was going one down there.
Not until I was asked if I wanted to 'stay or go back'. Only then, did I look down and feel the emotion of my mother while I was dying...I then, was instanly back.

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by Giulia » Wed May 16, 2018 11:17 pm

ano1 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:45 pm
Infinite spirit: I especially appreciate your response to Bliss about how we tend to take our physical memories and experiences with us when we leave our physical bodies, particularly when we have strong attachments to our physical body and this dense plane. We re-create similar scenarios in the thought/emotional responsive subtle realms.
I can only speak for my experience.. . but I really was not concerned with the physical world while I was gone. I didn't care one hoot what was going one down there.
Not until I was asked if I wanted to 'stay or go back'. Only then, did I look down and feel the emotion of my mother while I was dying...I then, was instanly back.
Yes, InfiniteSpirit. I guess I did not succeed in getting my point across there. What I was suggesting was that it might be us, phyisically on this plane, that tend to project physical drama into the Afterlife by ‘imagining’ scenarios that are physical-like (such fear- and scarcity-based ideas and ‘imagining’ that such notions carry on into the Afterlife). When NDErs come back and remember their experience things sound much more straightforward, as ano1 explained.

It was Barbara Brennan’s phychic observation of how the three lower chakras dissolve and are left behind at time of death that prompted me to suggest that.
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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Fri May 18, 2018 11:29 am

ano1 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:45 pm
Infinite spirit: I especially appreciate your response to Bliss about how we tend to take our physical memories and experiences with us when we leave our physical bodies, particularly when we have strong attachments to our physical body and this dense plane. We re-create similar scenarios in the thought/emotional responsive subtle realms.
I can only speak for my experience.. . but I really was not concerned with the physical world while I was gone. I didn't care one hoot what was going one down there.
Not until I was asked if I wanted to 'stay or go back'. Only then, did I look down and feel the emotion of my mother while I was dying...I then, was instanly back.
====================

Thanks for sharing your experience! Can you point me to where I can read about the totality of it? It sounds really interesting.
I am able to relate, only somewhat, to how you described your attention point becoming totally immersed in a more vivid and vibrant ethereal world and you were, for a little while, not at all concerned with this physical dimension -- that was, until your consciousness shifted to it. Then you reintegrated into physicality. I have visited some dimensions that were so extremely vivid that it made this 3D earth plane look like a [bad] dream, in comparison. As long as I kept my attention on the scene, I could remain. As soon as I shifted my awareness of knowing I was out of body, I found it hard to stay in the higher realms.

When I mentioned the physical attachment to memories and deep rooted habits, and how we sometimes experience them when we vacate our physical body, I was referring to cases where the physical body’s sensory apparatus sometimes ‘leak’ into the astral realms and anchors the astral/emotional body to the lower realms. If you check out the case with Dr. Eben Alexander, I believe he experienced this type of astral anchoring phenomena during his NDE. Perhaps the reason why some cultures burn the physical body three or so days after physical death, is to prevent any possible physical body sensory data leaking/attaching into/to the astral body of the newly deceased. This may serve to assist the consciousness to fully separate from this earthly experience. I do not know for sure, and can only surmise that this may be the reason.

Although I cannot speak about an experience of having had an NDE involving the temporary cessation of cardiac/brain function of a physical body, and hence a total unhindered detachment of my consciousness from my physical vehicle, I can share a little about my experiences with OBEs and how similar they sometimes seem to the many NDE accounts that I've had the pleasure of reading about.

Perhaps we can exchange our unique experiences in order to become more aware of how we create and co-create our reality in the subtle realms (consensus realities), just like we do in this denser plane.

For example, I am wondering if you had been able to hold your conscious attention away from all aspects of this physical experience, and continue to focus your full attention on the world you were in, would you have been able to remain longer where you were?

What I do notice when I am out of body, is that my focus of attention, personal beliefs, deep seated mind patterns, expectations and emotional state all seem to affect my astral journeys. I have also found that if I can shift my attention fully on what I desire, my surroundings do change. If I happen to divert any attention towards my physical body though, I start to feel myself getting heavier and have less control in the ethereal realms. If I do not keep focused away from the body, I come back to it. It seems to me that the less my physical body interferes, the more freedom I have in the subtle planes.

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Fri May 18, 2018 11:30 am

Giulia wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:17 pm
ano1 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:45 pm
Infinite spirit: I especially appreciate your response to Bliss about how we tend to take our physical memories and experiences with us when we leave our physical bodies, particularly when we have strong attachments to our physical body and this dense plane. We re-create similar scenarios in the thought/emotional responsive subtle realms.
I can only speak for my experience.. . but I really was not concerned with the physical world while I was gone. I didn't care one hoot what was going one down there.
Not until I was asked if I wanted to 'stay or go back'. Only then, did I look down and feel the emotion of my mother while I was dying...I then, was instanly back.
Yes, InfiniteSpirit. I guess I did not succeed in getting my point across there. What I was suggesting was that it might be us, phyisically on this plane, that tend to project physical drama into the Afterlife by ‘imagining’ scenarios that are physical-like (such fear- and scarcity-based ideas and ‘imagining’ that such notions carry on into the Afterlife). When NDErs come back and remember their experience things sound much more straightforward, as ano1 explained.

It was Barbara Brennan’s phychic observation of how the three lower chakras dissolve and are left behind at time of death that prompted me to suggest that.
==============

Thanks for the clarification Giulia.

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by Martina » Fri May 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Hi InfiniteSpirit, thank you for sharing your thoughts!

I snipped your post to focus on these points:
InfiniteSpirit wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:29 am

...

As long as I kept my attention on the scene, I could remain. As soon as I shifted my awareness of knowing I was out of body, I found it hard to stay in the higher realms.

...

For example, I am wondering if you had been able to hold your conscious attention away from all aspects of this physical experience, and continue to focus your full attention on the world you were in, would you have been able to remain longer where you were?
I believe it is indeed the case for OBEs and NDEs that you are able to stay out of the body for longer if you 'forget' the body. I think it works the other way round too - if someone is near dying, being physically touched or spoken to can draw them back into their body.

I remember, my dog died during an operation, his heart and breathing had stopped, and the vet's assistant called me into the operating room where the vet was performing chest compressions. I stepped to the table and touched my dog and said his name - and his heart restarted right then when I did that. I felt very clearly that I had pulled him back, I turned his attention towards his body and he decided to come back because he felt my love.

More generally, I have heard, but I can't remember where, that when someone dies you should not touch them in that moment. It makes sense to me. Touching someone who is in the process of leaving their body could make their attention go back and forth, I would imagine, and be a bit confusing for them and possibly delaying the process.

I'm sorry that my post does not address the question of the original poster, BlissInTheHeart!

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by ano1 » Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 pm

I am not sure what number is mine...I would have to go and look. It was submitted at least fifteen years ago.
InfiniteSpirit: For example, I am wondering if you had been able to hold your conscious attention away from all aspects of this physical experience, and continue to focus your full attention on the world you were in, would you have been able to remain longer where you were?
What I do notice when I am out of body, is that my focus of attention, personal beliefs, deep seated mind patterns, expectations and emotional state all seem to affect my astral journeys. I have also found that if I can shift my attention fully on what I desire, my surroundings do change. If I happen to divert any attention towards my physical body though, I start to feel myself getting heavier and have less control in the ethereal realms. If I do not keep focused away from the body, I come back to it. It seems to me that the less my physical body interferes, the more freedom I have in the subtle planes.
Since my nde I have never traveled out of my body. It was difficult enough to integrate back to living here...the next time I travel away from my body, I hope to stay there.
While gone, I had no need to focus, everything was plainly clear. As I mentioned in an earlier post this place was no longer important to me...I only looked back when questioned if I wanted to 'go back or stay' and early in the experience when I noticed myself down there... but I didn't feel concerned about the situation.

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Journeying across different dimensions

Post by Giulia » Sat May 19, 2018 4:47 am

ano1 wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 pm
I am not sure what number is mine...I would have to go and look. It was submitted at least fifteen years ago.
Hi, ano1. Did you use your name as it is spelt here to report it? I could try and look for the account. I'd love to read it too.
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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Sun May 20, 2018 10:38 pm

Martina wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:29 pm
Hi InfiniteSpirit, thank you for sharing your thoughts!

I snipped your post to focus on these points:
InfiniteSpirit wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:29 am

...

As long as I kept my attention on the scene, I could remain. As soon as I shifted my awareness of knowing I was out of body, I found it hard to stay in the higher realms.

...

For example, I am wondering if you had been able to hold your conscious attention away from all aspects of this physical experience, and continue to focus your full attention on the world you were in, would you have been able to remain longer where you were?
I believe it is indeed the case for OBEs and NDEs that you are able to stay out of the body for longer if you 'forget' the body. I think it works the other way round too - if someone is near dying, being physically touched or spoken to can draw them back into their body.

I remember, my dog died during an operation, his heart and breathing had stopped, and the vet's assistant called me into the operating room where the vet was performing chest compressions. I stepped to the table and touched my dog and said his name - and his heart restarted right then when I did that. I felt very clearly that I had pulled him back, I turned his attention towards his body and he decided to come back because he felt my love.

More generally, I have heard, but I can't remember where, that when someone dies you should not touch them in that moment. It makes sense to me. Touching someone who is in the process of leaving their body could make their attention go back and forth, I would imagine, and be a bit confusing for them and possibly delaying the process.

I'm sorry that my post does not address the question of the original poster, BlissInTheHeart!
=======================

Hi Martina,

Thanks for the response! I really enjoyed reading your post. :)

Yes, I've heard of that phenomena too! In the more natural, dying experience (especially when there has been no medications interfering with, or inhibiting the physical body's response mechanism), of a human being or an animal, it seems that they sometimes suddenly, and completely become lucid & alert moments before vacating the physical body. And, as you described, some people/animals can decide to reintegrate with the physical body and remain with their loved ones a little longer.

This is how many ND experiencers describe their reintegration process. They remember a loved one and start thinking about their physicality. Then they reintegrate. If animals could only talk and tell us about their ND experiences -- it would be just as interesting. For example, do animals experience another big animal [larger in hierarchical terms] in the astral realms who communicates to them to go back to their physical bodies, or do they just hover about in the room and then sense the owner's love for them, and then decide to reintegrate of their own free volition? Who knows?

In any case, this phenomena sure gives meaning to 'The Power of Love'. Love is a powerful force!

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Re: Why do some people have an NDE , others not ?

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Sun May 20, 2018 11:39 pm

ano1 wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 pm
I am not sure what number is mine...I would have to go and look. It was submitted at least fifteen years ago.
InfiniteSpirit: For example, I am wondering if you had been able to hold your conscious attention away from all aspects of this physical experience, and continue to focus your full attention on the world you were in, would you have been able to remain longer where you were?
What I do notice when I am out of body, is that my focus of attention, personal beliefs, deep seated mind patterns, expectations and emotional state all seem to affect my astral journeys. I have also found that if I can shift my attention fully on what I desire, my surroundings do change. If I happen to divert any attention towards my physical body though, I start to feel myself getting heavier and have less control in the ethereal realms. If I do not keep focused away from the body, I come back to it. It seems to me that the less my physical body interferes, the more freedom I have in the subtle planes.
Since my nde I have never traveled out of my body. It was difficult enough to integrate back to living here...the next time I travel away from my body, I hope to stay there.
While gone, I had no need to focus, everything was plainly clear. As I mentioned in an earlier post this place was no longer important to me...I only looked back when questioned if I wanted to 'go back or stay' and early in the experience when I noticed myself down there... but I didn't feel concerned about the situation.
==============
"Since my nde I have never traveled out of my body. It was difficult enough to integrate back to living here...the next time I travel away from my body, I hope to stay there. "
==============
I can sure identify with that! A lot of OBE'rs try hard to stay out of body. It's so fun and liberating! The landscape is much more vivid and intense than what is in this dense plane. There's so much freedom. I love walking through walls and flying around the landscape. I run into some pretty interesting human and non-human characters, too. Some are nice, others not so good. You learn how to deal with them by not giving them your energy, or attention.

I really think that the reason why OB experiencers have to focus more to remain out of body, is because the physical body of a casual OBE'er has a lot of chi (life-force) energy circulating within it. So, there's still a strong attraction to the astral/emotional body. I have been able to stay out fairly easily for up to 10 minutes, but then my physical body's senses start leaking through to my astral body. So, I have to constantly redirect my attention away from my physical body.

Whereas, a physical body that is in full cardiac arrest, or one that has flat-lined completely (as in the case of a full blown NDE), has much less chi energy circulating within it, and thus, has much less of an attraction to the subtle bodies (particularly the astral/emotional body). Under those conditions, I think that very little focus away from physicality is required to remain separated in the astral/emotional body during an NDE. Essentially, there's nothing for the astral body to attach to during that time. However, as the emergency team succeeds in resuscitating, and restoring some chi circulation to the physical body that was in cardiac arrest (or flat-lined), that is usually the moment when the NDE'er starts to feel, or intuitively sense a strong attraction to return to their physical body again.

Unless the NDE'er has formerly practiced, or understands how to remain out of body when physical sensory data leakage occurs from the physical back to the subtle bodies, they are quickly forced to come back to their physical body, with no options. The physical body, as well as the other subtle bodies, are all connected and matched energetically. To break the link, you have to interrupt the energy flow between them.

As an example, I've read many cases where an NDE'er said that they met someone (a higher being) who gave them a choice whether to remain, or to go back to physicality, and to which the NDE'er promptly replied, 'I want to stay here, this is my Home!'. However, much to the NDE'ers chagrin, it turned out a few moments later that they were literally forced to come back to the physical body in spite of the option just given to remain. This would seem like a contradiction by the higher being, to some degree. So, was the (higher) being contradicting the NDE'er? Personally, I don't think that's the case. I believe it's simply because the physical body's chi circulation got restored again and the attraction reignited, and reunited all the subtle bodies back with the physical body. The NDE'ers in these cases were unable to resist reintegration with physicality.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts... :)

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Re: Journeying across different dimensions

Post by Giulia » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:43 am

About NDErs getting a choice... I have heard other accounts of NDErs who were urged to come back by the grief of their loved ones. I often wonder about all those who do not survive resuscitation attempts and whether it might have been, in fact, their choice.

I think my longest OBE was 15 minutes, and it happened in 2015, when I met my father and spent that time with him. I got a clear feeling it had all been carefully orchestrated and it was not only thanks to my skills that it happened as it happened and it lasted that long.

Only twice have I felt temporarily unable to get back: on both occasions (one in 1994 and one in 2003) I was visiting somebody who had recently died and had become so absorbed by the situation that I had "forgotten" I did not belong there.

The reason I saught OBEs was that I suffered from deep claustrophobia and felt the urge to check I was not bound by this physical body. Once I succeeded, my urge was to check that loved ones on the other side were safe. It has always been a bumpy journey, I cannot deny that. But I am very happy to have been able to check for myself.
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Re: Journeying across different dimensions

Post by dreamer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:52 pm

This is a 'family related' experience so not mine personally about choosing to live or die.

Recently, my sister's husband died and both me and my sister got a message from him. Mine important to me but not to this thread.

My sister has a medium neighbor and the medium friend told my sister her husband visited and gave her a lot of important information but also stated he 'did have a choice' whether he wanted to return. He was shown his life if he decided to return and it was not good as he already had limiting 'heart problems' and would have had 'significant problems' from hitting his head and being drowned. Therefore, the 'medium' stated he did not want to be a burden so he chose to not return and chose to die then.

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Re: Journeying across different dimensions

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:06 am

Giulia wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:43 am
About NDErs getting a choice... I have heard other accounts of NDErs who were urged to come back by the grief of their loved ones. I often wonder about all those who do not survive resuscitation attempts and whether it might have been, in fact, their choice.
==================================

The more I study my own consciousness, and consensus realities when doing OBEs in the astral [conscious/thought responsive] realms, the more I become convinced that we project our deepest beliefs onto other entities that we interact with while in the astral/subtle realms. For example, if a person has an inner belief, or a deep conviction that they need to take care of someone on this earth plane, they will likely project this same belief onto another character that they may see while in the astral realms. The result; what they experience is a loved one appearing before them who will say, "You have to go back... it is not your time yet."

In this earthly realm, we tend to see things, not as they actually are, but as we are, on the inside, according to our particular beliefs and all the filters through which we view our 'outer' world.
I think we all have a choice as to what we do when we vacate our physical containers, but we don't easily realize it because we quickly become too hypnotized/mesmerized by the 'outside' scenery that we project. We have learned to subjugate ourselves and give our power away to others.

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Re: Journeying across different dimensions

Post by Giulia » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:53 am

InfiniteSpirit wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:06 am
I think we all have a choice as to what we do when we vacate our physical containers, but we don't easily realize it because we quickly become too hypnotized/mesmerized by the 'outside' scenery that we project. We have learned to subjugate ourselves and give our power away to others.
Hi, InfiniteSpirit. I am not sure I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that love is a sign of weakness and that returning after an NDE is NOT the result of a transpersonal experience but just a confirmation that we are giving away our own power?
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Re: Journeying across different dimensions

Post by InfiniteSpirit » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:34 pm

Giulia wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:53 am
InfiniteSpirit wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:06 am
I think we all have a choice as to what we do when we vacate our physical containers, but we don't easily realize it because we quickly become too hypnotized/mesmerized by the 'outside' scenery that we project. We have learned to subjugate ourselves and give our power away to others.
Hi, InfiniteSpirit. I am not sure I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that love is a sign of weakness and that returning after an NDE is NOT the result of a transpersonal experience but just a confirmation that we are giving away our own power?
=================================

Hi Giulia,

According to my own current knowledge, experience, and perceptions, love is never a sign of weakness. In my perspective, love is actually a very powerful, self-empowering and creative force. The problem is how we all have been taught to perceive “Love” in our current life experience.

Therefore, what I’m suggesting is that, if our [subconscious] Mind Patterns and deep-rooted belief systems are such that we feel that we are subject to a hierarchy (mom, dad, teacher, society, priest, etc.), or we see ourselves as not being in charge of ourselves and the sole proprietor of our own individuated conscious experience, then it is very likely that these same patterns will steer us into a consensus reality in the astral (thought responsive) realms where we can experience another astral entity who plays the role of hierarchy for us. Hierarchy is an illusion. There is only one conscious entity expressing itself in many individuated aspects, in my view, in physical, dense containers.

This ‘consensus reality’ arrangement is tantamount to individuals on this planet who gravitate to certain groups of people who, themselves are part of a particular belief or hierarchical structure (duality-role playing]. A victim mindset attracts a victimizer, just as a savior mindset attracts another person who feels vulnerable and in need of a savior, etc. It is really no different in the subtle realms, according to my experience.

Thus, my conclusion at the moment is; if a Near Death Experiencer decides (be it through the astral [emotional/ego body) to remain in his/her beautiful/loving ethereal experience BUT, the NDEr believes deeply [subconsciously] that s/he doesn’t deserve such love or pleasure, s/he may find another individuated conscious entity in a hierarchical structure (I.E. angel, mom, dad, etc.) located in a consensus ‘reality’ who will tell s/he to go back to the physical body.

That is essentially, what I was trying to get across.

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Re: Journeying across different dimensions

Post by Giulia » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:16 am

InfiniteSpirit wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:34 pm
Thus, my conclusion at the moment is; if a Near Death Experiencer decides (be it through the astral [emotional/ego body) to remain in his/her beautiful/loving ethereal experience BUT, the NDEr believes deeply [subconsciously] that s/he doesn’t deserve such love or pleasure, s/he may find another individuated conscious entity in a hierarchical structure (I.E. angel, mom, dad, etc.) located in a consensus ‘reality’ who will tell s/he to go back to the physical body.
Thanks for explaining that, Infinite Spirit. That's interesting because it was from NDE accounts that I first found out about the idea that what we tend to perceive as a hierarchy in this physical life is, in fact, a form of teamwork, a win-win partnership we are not easily aware of on the physical plane and from our Ego's point of view, but which spiritually transformative experiences such as NDEs remind us of.

I wonder: if NDErs were all people who deep inside feel they did not deserve bliss, what would this life be ultimately aimed at?

As for me, the only antagonist I have ever had to report to or even struggle with, in the non-physical realms, was my Ego or Shadow Self, which I understand to be the anchor rooting us into this physical reality and making incarnate life possible as long as we are here. The one exception I remember was during an OBE back in 2005, when I was feeling very powerful and determined to clear things up with a wicked relative. At that time I was 'distracted' by a magnetic loving light coming from the corner of the ceiling of the astral version of our bedroom: I was magnetically attracted to this loving source and instantly let go of my previous pursuit. From this new angle, I was able to focus on all the wonderful aspects of our lives and lost any interest in demanding an explanation about what there and then appeared as really petty issues. That was not a life or death choice, but it was nonetheless very instructive as to the big picture I was not allowing myself to see.

Any blissful or spiritually-transformative experience I have had so far always challenged any mindset I might have previously had.
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Re: Journeying across different dimensions

Post by ZenTzu » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:11 pm

InfiniteSpirit wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:06 am
Giulia wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:43 am
About NDErs getting a choice... I have heard other accounts of NDErs who were urged to come back by the grief of their loved ones. I often wonder about all those who do not survive resuscitation attempts and whether it might have been, in fact, their choice.
This is quite a complex and interesting topic. Personally I do believe from my own experiences and observations while sharing in the deathbed visions of both of my parents, that our day of departure is not actually set in stone and we do in fact have a choice. As my Father's time approached, there were moments he seemed to be listening intently to someone, not visible or audible to me (at that moment anyway) who was giving him instructions of some sort. He would even respond gently, almost in a whisper-like tone, as if whatever was being said was a secret. My Mother who we lost very recently, I am convinced was being beckoned for the last couple of years but she was simply NOT ready to go. There were times she (perfectly alert) would say things like "Tell her I am not going yet", "TELL HER I AM NOT READY". To me witnessing these events were the greatest of gifts. Someone once told me that when her own Mother died she was so distraught she screamed "MOMMY, please don't leave me!". The next thing she knew, her Mother was breathing again and lived on in this realm for several more months.
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